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Pricing options and steam release ?

Pricing options and steam release ?

Postby tumira » 22 Oct 2017, 01:40

Just like the title says, what is the release date to release this on steam ? Estimation date? What about the price ?
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Pricing options and steam release ?

Postby SolarPortal » 22 Oct 2017, 11:53

Hi and welcome to the forums tumira :)

Our release schedule is currently middle to end of november, we were delayed because of a few tasks, but they are now underway.
As for price, Skyline will have a tiered pricing structure. We want to aim for around £99.99 for the engine but there are no costs after this apart from a yearly update fee. If the yearly update fee is not paid, then you keep the version you last updated to forever..

We will then have a higher priced version of £199.99 which will have access to 10 seats which suits well for a small team development. There will also be other features like being able to remove splashscreen and also access to the Skyline Server.exe which will be the engine as a console app to help develop multiplayer games or run it on a server.

This is the current WIP licensing options and what we want to provide for the end user:
http://home.aurasoft-skyline.co.uk/skyline-license-options/

Please note: that not all the features are yet implemented(Additional Content, Additional Plugins, ) and will be removed from the license options, but when developed, you would receive them free in an update for that version as the page suggests..

We hope this clears up your questions :)
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Pricing options and steam release ?

Postby SpiderMack » 24 Oct 2017, 11:39

This is the current WIP licensing options and what we want to provide for the end user:
http://home.aurasoft-skyline.co.uk/skyl ... e-options/


Hi,
I took a look at the licenses panel.

There are many things i find not making sense :

To be able to remove the splash screen any individual will have to buy the Ultimate 10 sit license


Why some individual need a 10 sit license to only remove the splash screen ? this doesn't make sense.

Why not have Ultimate renamed as Pro with year upgrades and remove Pro version ?

Ultimate version : Updates until next major version within the 3 years or 3 year updates covered max.

3 years free of upgrades is a bad commercial practice (better keep year upgrade for every license).

Most users having paid 200$ would be ready to pay another 200$ next year if each year updates brings great 3D engine features.


Only buyers of Ultimate have access to " plus skyline theme & Renderer Viewports " to create advanced plugins.


This is the worst idea i seen lol.

If you take a look at Unity thousand of plugins have been made and started with the free version, this helped a lot Unity to get better ,have better tooling and become more popular while attracting more and more people. And this also means they made lot of money as plugins are sold on the asset store.


Limiting Lite version to make plugins is limiting the number of plugins the engine could get.
(Specially when top notch plugins cost around 60 to 100$ if you look at Unity asset store)

It looks like you are sabotaging yourself lol
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Pricing options and steam release ?

Postby SolarPortal » 24 Oct 2017, 11:57

Valid Viewpoint and i can see where you are coming from on certain points :)

1) To be able to remove the splash screen any individual will have to buy the Ultimate 10 sit license
Why some individual need 10 sit for that , this doesn't make sense.

The 10 seats was an additional bonus originally, it could still be used as a single user but with the extra features.
But i can see the misunderstanding that the 10 seats and splashscreen removal seem like to seperate parts.

Why not have Ultimate renamed as Pro with year upgrades and remove Pro version ?

We tried to split the pricing so there is an affordable version of skyline that would cover most users needs and only those that are wanting everything would then pay for the ultimate.

2) Ultimate version : Updates until next major version within the 3 years or 3 year updates covered max.
3 years free of upgrades is a bad commercial practice (better keep year upgrade for every license).

Fair enough, it was just another incentive to pay for the ultimate version...

2) Only buyers of Ultimate have access to " plus skyline theme & Renderer Viewports " to create advanced plugins.

This one i think you misunderstood. The pro version is able to create plugins for skyline, but you would have to do the styling yourself and would not be able to include a renderer viewport. Like many unity plugins i have seen, they look like docked panels that have no need of a renderer. The Skyline theme which is the same as the main engines was too be provided as an encrypted file so users could style their plugin in the same theme as the engine.

However, giving access to the free version for making plugins does not sound like a bad idea and as you say, it could provide more traction and give users a purpose to attempt to self fund the price of the engine through the use of their own skills.

It's ok to put some limitation between Pro and Lite, but this one is a very bad idea.

It looks like you are sabotaging yourself lol

Last thing we want to do, as we mentioned, its still a WIP and wasnt to be shown at this stage, but since the question was asked, we needed to provide an answer... We will take everything you have said under advisement and make adjustments to our plans where needed :)

Thanks for your input :)
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Re: Pricing options and steam release ?

Postby SpiderMack » 24 Oct 2017, 12:45

But i can see the misunderstanding that the 10 seats and splashscreen removal seem like to seperate parts.

Yeah , number of sits and splashscreen should be separate.

The Ultimate is a 10 site license mainly because of the team, why Pro users should buy 10 sits only to get some options only available in Ultimate ? Both versions should be the same expect Ultimate have 10 sits license, this is the main point of Ultimate.

Also pricing looks wrong, Ultimate is only 100$ above Pro version to get 10 licenses lol while 10 pro license is 900$.
Ultimate for 500$ is already a good deal.

About Pro features , includes all features and increase its' price to 150$ or 200$ is better perhaps.


Like many unity plugins i have seen, they look like docked panels that have no need of a renderer.


Because all plugins work in editor. no need to have additionnal windows, specially if you work with 10 plugins at same time.
I have not dealed with Skyline plugins, but i hope panel support like Unity will be available.

The Skyline theme which is the same as the main engines was too be provided as an encrypted file so users could style their plugin in the same theme as the engine.

No one will care about plugins theme (take a look at Unity plugins), but plugins could have images.


However, giving access to the free version for making plugins does not sound like a bad idea and as you say, it could provide more traction and give users a purpose to attempt to self fund the price of the engine through the use of their own skills.

Yep, you'll get more plugin buyers and sellers.
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Re: Pricing options and steam release ?

Postby SolarPortal » 24 Oct 2017, 13:04

Ultimate is now called Studio Pro, which was the name we were meant to change it too..

Price of Pro is already around $150 because we are GBP.

Yeah, can see the issue of studio pro having a devalued pricing or overpricing due to the amount of copies that you would have to pay for Pro. Also, we don't want to come across as too expensive of an engine...

Studio Pro is around $260 dollars and £199.99

I have not dealed with Skyline plugins, but i hope panel support like Unity will be available.

Panel support is planned, but at the moment, you can make full main window apps that open seperatly. Plugins are made using Qt and lua in Skyline for instant development with no compile times. This also allows full custom icons, full editor styling and images as much as wanted..
We are also planning on encrypting plugins for users too so they cannot be opened or edited if the creator doesn't want that.

Also, we have updated the main license page to reflect changes currently made...
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Re: Pricing options and steam release ?

Postby SpiderMack » 24 Oct 2017, 13:06

The other aspect is free updates for the Lite version


This means letting people use a not as good version with bug fixes as the last version many months after.
I am not sure this is a good idea.

Letting people use some old outdated version with bugs or features missing will only make bad advertisment for the 3D engine i think; instead of letting them access to last bug fixes and missing stuff braught in the 3D engine.



About the Lite capabilities similarity to Unity Personnal free edition


Skyline Lite edition :
Export Capability: Player only
Updates: None
Auto updating engine: No
Customize Loading & Options Screens: No
No In-Game Watermark: No
Multiple Root libraries: No
Steam SDK Integration: No



In comparison Unity Personnal edition is free , anyone have all features , the only big difference is the limit annual income (appart form some teams services and cloud), if you make more than 100 000$ you must susbcribe.

But anyone can make and sell games with Unity free version or buy and sell plugins.

And it's great :

The engine gets more and more users and more and more popularity throught games sold displaying the logo,
because anyone can download it right away to make and and sell games without having to pay something (only register is needed).

Each successfull game made with Unity is a free advertisement for the 3D engine : so more people to buy plugins or buy a license.
Like each internet tutorial you can find , it's also advertisment also in some way.

Also each plugin sold by someone using the free version also means more income for Unity and people using the free version will also buy plugins.

Locking so much Lite version of Skyline with no game export, no auto updates , no Steam is locking potential people able to make and sell games with Skyline. This means less advertisment because less or no game sold to showcase the 3D engine world wide to players and users.

This is not easy subject about the free Lite version

Should Lite version be complete but limited only by :
- Splash screen
- Lite version can remove watermark only throught Skyline devs support on a specific game build
Each sold or freely distributed game using Lite version would need be approved by Skyline devs to remove the watermark.
This also means devs could control the income of someone using the Lite version.
- 50 000$ limit and Lite users must upgrade to Pro version
- make Pro version more expensive like 200$ or 300$ for year license
- limit multiplayer in Lite version to 4 players.


I agree , it's difficult subject to find the balance and choose between restricting some free version or givign it more capability to spread the world about popularity.
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Re: Pricing options and steam release ?

Postby SolarPortal » 24 Oct 2017, 13:11

The lite version will be updated, but will not be an auto updating system. So it will always be uptodate.
We want the lite version to be more a try before you buy..

Unity already has millions in the bank to allow them the time for advertisement through free sold games whereas we need a business model that allows us to continue developing for the years to come.. hence not too pricey and not too limited but just right haha.. like the goldilocks zone :P

I think you are looking at the older page too... refresh the license page...
so i think what needs priced in the studio pro and if it should be the 10 licenses or not....
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Re: Pricing options and steam release ?

Postby SpiderMack » 24 Oct 2017, 13:25

Unity already has millions in the bank to allow them the time for advertisement through free sold games

There is Pro versions , but the Asset Store for all users is another one :mrgreen:

We want the lite version to be more a try before you buy..


Ok, it's more clear, no Free version.
While Pro and 10 sit license i think needs the same features and pricing adjustments perhaps.
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Re: Pricing options and steam release ?

Postby SolarPortal » 24 Oct 2017, 13:34

yeah, thinking of making the Studio Pro a 2 seat license which then makes sense for the splashscreen removal on top of that... then if a team needs a license, they can contact us and we can come to some sort of arrangement...

Our main market is the hobbyist/modder users who want to play and have fun.... competing on the same level as unity / unreal is just stupid considering they are well established and have huge teams and lots of cash.. it however does not mean that an indie or pro developer cant use the engine... I think that would sort the pricing out on the engine...

Ok, it's more clear, no Free version.

Its a try before you buy, but you can test it for as long as you want, e.g. no number of day limits etc... Thats why its limited, so they can go, i like this engine, then make plugins to pay for the engine or just pay for the engine... then those that want the top badge can pay the extra bit to remove the splashscreen and get the server multiplayer stuff as that is more high end :)

Edit: Updated license page... so please refresh it

Edit: And once we have the profiler, that will go in the studio pro license.
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Re: Pricing options and steam release ?

Postby SpiderMack » 24 Oct 2017, 18:29

The name Pro looks weird as this is the entry version, and Ultimate it meaned for teams with 10 seats.
It's still strange to get some PRo version limited compared to Ultimate when people don't want 10 sits license.

Edit: Updated license page... so please refresh it


I checked but still for Pro version :

Develop Editor Plugins & Addons: Pro doesn't have "skyline theme & Renderer Viewports" ?

I don' tknow if this features really matters or not as people using the PRo can develop plugins in Unity way ? i mean panels ?

Remove Skyline Splashscreen:

Not availabe for Pro, anyone should buy a 10 sit license to remove the splash screen but they don't need extra support, they don't need 3 years license or 10 licenses, it doesn't make sense.

Networking Solution :

Lan only for Pro version ? I don't know if it will not make some people making multiplayer stay away ?

Null Renderer for server:

Not available for Pro. But i don't know what it is or if it is usefull or not.



I find it rather mixed about features and price.

Some option like this would make more sense :
* "Basic version" for 100$ actual Pro version with actual limitations.
* " Pro version" for 200$ it would be the actual Ultimate version but only 1 license for 2 computers
* "Team license" for 300$ the actual Ultimate license with 10 sits licenses

Well , perhaps the actual license pricing is good, and Pro version is cheap enought for people to get in game dev with most of features needed.
And they can upgrade to Ultimate if they are ready to ship some game.
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Re: Pricing options and steam release ?

Postby epsilonion » 24 Oct 2017, 19:56

Are you planning an upgrade fee for people that have bought the Pro version and want to remove branding like the Skyline Splash Screen and the have the full networking package... just a thought because buying for £100 then £199 totals £299.. and I can not see many home users having that sort of spare cash laying around and if there beginners can they justify that amount to there families? (just another way of looking at it)..

This would allow home and beginners to start developing or even learning but most home users budgets will be very small with the world been what it is these days. (cough cough like my budget but want full networking :) )

say they have version 1 and have paid the update fee for the year but want to upgrade package... they get xx% discount.

if they have version 1 and the next major version v2 comes out and they have not paid the update fee for 1 year xx% discount.

If they have version 1 and v3 comes out and they have not kept up with the update fee they pay full wack for the studio pro version.
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Re: Pricing options and steam release ?

Postby SolarPortal » 24 Oct 2017, 20:16

@epsilonion, exactly that :)

If you purchase the pro version and then want to upgrade to Studio Pro, then you pay the difference.
If you pay for your license and the following year you pay again, then you pay a nominal fee(e.g. 40%-50% of original price)
If you pay for your license, then miss 2 years, you then have to repurchase the engine..
all depending on if major versions have been released.

@Spidermack,
The page is now showing, 2 users for the studio pro, so its not based on seats. For that extra £100, you recieve a full extra seat with a further 2 activations on the key plus get multiplayer server version and get the ability to remove the splashscreen.
Most users that purchase the pro edition wont be needing full networking support. Someone will host the game and others connect, if you want a full server -> client -> server setup, then that costs the extra as people would have to have a gaming server which they are paying for or own... so i think that makes it quite fair.

Going back to the 10 seat license, that would be a special license now and would require the customer to contact us about that, as the top version just provides 2 keys now which as you mentioned earlier.
10 pro's would have been £999.99, whereas the 10 seat for Studio Pro(Ultimate) would have only been £200.
Now its a single for £99.99 and £199.99 for a 2 seat license, with full server multiplayer and the ability to remove the splashscreen and the skyline theme for the editors so it all blends which is worth something.
So you get more for the £199.99 than the £99.99 in the sense that if you bought two £99.99 licenses you would have spent the same and have less features than the full package....

We have had users on Discord saying how they are quite content with the new pricing structure, which we have accomadted what you have said from the start. e.g. making plugins on the free version etc...

As for the names, they are just names and if we get better names for them, then we are open to change :)

Edit: The develop plugins has changed for pro now:
Clipboard Image.jpg
Clipboard Image.jpg (25.62 KiB) Viewed 4255 times

which is why i was mentioning to refresh :) Perhaps Shift+F5 to refresh the cached version
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Re: Pricing options and steam release ?

Postby epsilonion » 24 Oct 2017, 20:27

Thank you mate its very clear .. :P
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Re: Pricing options and steam release ?

Postby SpiderMack » 24 Oct 2017, 21:06

Someone will host the game and others connect, if you want a full server -> client -> server setup, then that costs the extra as people would have to have a gaming server which they are paying for or own... so i think that makes it quite fair.


It is lot more clear indeed. You should put this information at bottom page perhaps.

About pricing , 99$ is a low price for the Pro version considering what it is getting and good amount of features and tools it has.
Some price like 200$ for Pro version would not be so exagerated i think for what the engine actually proposes and considering devs are constantly working on it.

About year upgrades 50% price looks low, it will be up to you to decide the best price and be carefull as this will decrease your year income.
Well , it is up to you and you can change pricing or licensing later, this is not excluded like many 3D engines do sometimes.

About splash screen if someone will publish a game perhaps he will not bother about the Splash Screen; like Unreal 4 the logo splash screen is a good advertisment.
Perhaps you could consider to have some option to let people customize the splash screen font and colors logo like Unreal 4 is allowing ?
Like people must validate the logo with devs before releasing their game if they wish to modify the splash screen ?

Well, the actual Pro version licensing is great.
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Re: Pricing options and steam release ?

Postby planetX » 24 Oct 2017, 21:36

Hi there,

prices look fine... but not sure about the balance between the PRO and the STUDIO, as there are few differences in features (the splash screen and the network ones) for double the price. The STUDIO has 2 licenses, but that's irrelevant if you work alone. Wouldn't be better if you give all the features to the PRO version and give more licenses at a reduced price to the STUDIO? So you basically have 2 versions, the free and the commercial.

Just a thought, don't take this too seriously as I never have been good at business. :D

Anyway... the Pro version is just perfect for me, as the splashscreen doesn't disturb me and no plan for network games, plus that I don't have friends, so no need for a second seat :lol:

Cheers!

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Re: Pricing options and steam release ?

Postby SolarPortal » 25 Oct 2017, 11:32

It is lot more clear indeed. You should put this information at bottom page perhaps.

Done!

Perhaps you could consider to have some option to let people customize the splash screen font and colors logo like Unreal 4 is allowing ?
Like people must validate the logo with devs before releasing their game if they wish to modify the splash screen ?

Perhaps in the future, at the moment, it is a video rendered at the start, but some GUI version could be made.

About year upgrades 50% price looks low, it will be up to you to decide the best price and be carefull as this will decrease your year income.
Well , it is up to you and you can change pricing or licensing later, this is not excluded like many 3D engines do sometimes.

Yeah, certainly a tough one to get a good deal for users yet keep income for the business to expand and grow.

prices look fine... but not sure about the balance between the PRO and the STUDIO, as there are few differences in features (the splash screen and the network ones) for double the price. The STUDIO has 2 licenses, but that's irrelevant if you work alone. Wouldn't be better if you give all the features to the PRO version and give more licenses at a reduced price to the STUDIO? So you basically have 2 versions, the free and the commercial.

Yeah, it is a hard balance to get right and make it look appealing without being too expensive or competing in price wars with other engines. Currently still thinking about the splash screen whether to provide the option of removing it with Pro; perhaps at a later date... as we do need the advertising haha :P
But the server certainly should cost more :P

Anyway... the Pro version is just perfect for me, as the splashscreen doesn't disturb me and no plan for network games, plus that I don't have friends, so no need for a second seat :lol:

Thats great to hear that you would go for the Pro version :),
We here on the forums are your friends and at some point we might have the ability to develop scenes together over the internet, but that is another topic for another day ;)


So, this has been quite a discussion and lots to think about still and thanks for all the answers and responses.
If anyone has any other thoughts or ideas, we are open to hearing them :D
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