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Fix the basics first

Fix the basics first

Postby SpiderMack » 21 Apr 2018, 11:18

Hi,

Is this a common mistake some few indie 3D engines teams make ignoring so much the editor should be friendly as much as possible and game functionality should be first thing to work on, but instead they work on graphics first ?

I found another 3D indie engine that made the mistake to ignore the basis from long years and was suprised it never took off, they are fixing it so many, many years after :shock:
It's incredible they didn't understand users need first usability and game features before it gets shiny graphic features.


What you do if you got cloth physics , sub surface scattering, but navmesh is not working properly to make your game ?
You got a pretty demo showcase not a game.
Image



Should work put on the editor and functionality like physics, AI toolset , Navmesh, editor Tree view etc ... to make it easy for users to make functional games first ?
Image

Instead of working on grass ? :lol:
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Re: Fix the basics first

Postby SolarPortal » 21 Apr 2018, 14:15

Well m8 :) This is our plan and all the editor functionality is scheduled in for after the vegetation already as we have said many many times.. You need to be aware that tasks take time and they are not a few hour jobs.. Skyline has a plan for the long term and all the fixes you have complained about are scheduled as mentioned.

Grass is being worked on due to the fact that it is needed for some peoples games and is quite a large selling point to have terrain and a decent vegetation system.

You also forget that while the grass is being made, StarFire is also working on new game mechanics like crafting, inventory, which have needed engine fixes and new gameplay additions. There are 2 of us not 1, so there are more tasks on the go than you think there are..

sorry but its just my 2cents and i accept your opinion... :)
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Re: Fix the basics first

Postby SpiderMack » 21 Apr 2018, 18:33

SolarPortal wrote:Well m8 :) This is our plan and all the editor functionality is scheduled in for after the vegetation already as we have said many many times.. You need to be aware that tasks take time and they are not a few hour jobs.. Skyline has a plan for the long term and all the fixes you have complained about are scheduled as mentioned.

Grass is being worked on due to the fact that it is needed for some peoples games and is quite a large selling point to have terrain and a decent vegetation system.

You also forget that while the grass is being made, StarFire is also working on new game mechanics like crafting, inventory, which have needed engine fixes and new gameplay additions. There are 2 of us not 1, so there are more tasks on the go than you think there are..

sorry but its just my 2cents and i accept your opinion... :)


What games ? Without navmesh navigation properly working (with the rotation bugs), import FBX not working with multi IK, how can they make a game ?
It's not ready for a commercial game until you make something very specific like space ship or rolling ball.

The engine in the video is a great example, it make sales, but many people just leave because basics are missing, and some never come back.
There is no navmesh, no real particle system etc ... They weren't helping themselves only relying on shiny graphics.
They put graphics before basics features.

The supposed dialog system does not look good, it's far from ready for a commercial game, presentation and fonts need work, and i did not understood how to use it.
Why proposing something far from ready to use in a commercial game ?

Would it make more sense to let crafting and inventory for later, instead make it very easy to create HUD and control in an easy way the HUD, make video tutorials or create a plugin to easy create HUD ?

I can understand to sell something saying it can do another thousand survival game or another thousand Batlle Royale.
But well it's for beginners to play with, they rely on what they get, and they rarely make a good game or good sales.

For experienced people instead of relying on what you give them, they prefer usability and functionality they could expand and improve.

Is Skyline trying to become a game maker ? Nothing wrong and perhaps it could get lot more success, i don't know ?

Do as you want indeed, i won't care so much, perhaps it will reach a good state of usability.

About all that , i was just incredibly surprised by the other engine making the right changes so much years later :o :lol:
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Re: Fix the basics first

Postby TattieBoJangle » 21 Apr 2018, 20:48

You have good points SpiderMack but to be fair to them its sort of our fault as they are more or less doing exactly what the users who are using the engine are asking for over on discord and I admire that they are doing this as I know for a fact it wasn't high on there list and the other stuff is coming just takes time with a 2 person team.

On another note that S2 engine :lol: :lol: :lol: and this is from experience not because i use skyline.

Its a MESS its like windows xp and windows vista had a baby and there parents don't want it :oops: the performance is a joke and crashes allll the time not even a soft crash I'm talking hard crashes where your system would fail.

Have a look on the reviews on steam and i mean look at the people who own more than a few things not just the fake reviews who thumbs it up who only own 1 or 2 items :lol:

I guess what i am getting at with all this as i got a bit carried away on how bad it is :lol: you can only use what you need at the time if you need stuff that skyline dosnt have then you have to wait till its added or use another engine its a catch 22 but wish all the best on whatever you do.
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Re: Fix the basics first

Postby SpiderMack » 22 Apr 2018, 16:37

TattieBoJangle wrote:You have good points SpiderMack but to be fair to them its sort of our fault as they are more or less doing exactly what the users who are using the engine are asking for over on discord and I admire that they are doing this as I know for a fact it wasn't high on there list and the other stuff is coming just takes time with a 2 person team.

On another note that S2 engine :lol: :lol: :lol: and this is from experience not because i use skyline.

Its a MESS its like windows xp and windows vista had a baby and there parents don't want it :oops: the performance is a joke and crashes allll the time not even a soft crash I'm talking hard crashes where your system would fail.

Have a look on the reviews on steam and i mean look at the people who own more than a few things not just the fake reviews who thumbs it up who only own 1 or 2 items :lol:

I guess what i am getting at with all this as i got a bit carried away on how bad it is :lol: you can only use what you need at the time if you need stuff that skyline dosnt have then you have to wait till its added or use another engine its a catch 22 but wish all the best on whatever you do.


Rule 1 :
Never do ALL what users ask.

Many times this goes into the wrong direction because users don't have long term vision.
They want the best graphics while they are unable to design and make a great game.
This is exactly S2Engine is about, they put all effort on on graphics, while there is no navmesh system for example :o

I seen some plugins going wrong because the author followed and promised all ideas users asked instead of creating and sticking to it's own roadmap and dates.
I don't say you must not listen to users, they have good feedback, but keep your main roadmap and priorities don't jump on their short term needs.




S2engine indeed has some incredible features like multi texture vertex painting on models, decals with height blending , Gui editor, vegetation layers, Spline editor roads and rivers, Animations and blend editor, Ocean and Time Of Day simulation.



But visual FSM editor doesn't seem to compile anything , it's not good for performance.

It's an engine to have fun and play with, something towards beginners with the Zombie DLC to create games without coding and without game coding knowledge.
It's fine and there is a big demand for that type of easy creation suites, if you look at Minecraft.

The worst is they have no bug report or functional site, they only use Steam to discuss, i thaugh it was a joke :shock: :o :shock:




Skyline could move to some Skyrim like creator with ready to use characters with scripts DLC and models packs DLC, complete story and dialog makers, why not ?
I don't see nothing wrong with that, and perhaps this could be the better way to sell a lot , like Minecraft or Roblox.
Perhaps there is a lot better market for world builders software as there is already great solutions with popular 3D engines ?


I find it strange Skyline put effort into graphics before functionality , but perhaps this is like S2 Engine to attract users with graphics; even if some advanced gameplay is broken or not possible.

About Skyline, it's not ready as i said before, indeed i use something else, why should i wait one more year for Skyline with probability some features will still be missing ?
At least i put all Skyline missing essential features in the bug report system and feedback.
It's like S2 Engine , Skyline team do it's own roadmap and choose their priorities, nothing wrong with that and sure i won't insist more about priorities, each do as he wants :lol:
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Re: Fix the basics first

Postby SolarPortal » 22 Apr 2018, 17:02

Locking the topic before flame war begins...

And its only not usable in your opinion, we do have other people using it...
It is also starting to look like you are promoting S2 on our forums which is against rules.

We have not always focused on graphics, this has come through a necessity of Gen1 looking outdated and using an old renderer.
Gen2 is graphically better yes, but its also more stable and has more mechanics..
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