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Learning the basics

Learning the basics

Postby epsilonion » 03 Mar 2015, 10:35

Just learning the engine at the moment, only had it a couple of days.

I am focusing on level design at the moment and coming to grips with the workflow, for the purpose of showing what I have found to be the best engine I have used for making atmospheric levels.

I will be venturing into scripting after I have nailed the level editor.

The Pathing system is so easy to use.
Basic material setting.


Uber Materials setting:

Image

Another scene test (dark internal).
I am very impressed so far, compared to another engine I was using the image quality is second to none.

Image

Updated scene added atmosphere to the scene.



Screenshot:
Image
Last edited by epsilonion on 05 Mar 2015, 11:27, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Learning the basics

Postby TattieBoJangle » 03 Mar 2015, 10:47

Looking great :) cant wait to see it when the material are in adv or uber it will fix alot of they buildings and make them look great keep up the good work.
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Re: Learning the basics

Postby SolarPortal » 03 Mar 2015, 11:15

that is great and the first user fly through video.
Glad the camera entity has worked from the previous to last release aswell.

Keep up the great work! You will be a Skyline Guru in no time :P
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Re: Learning the basics

Postby epsilonion » 03 Mar 2015, 11:32

Its one thing throwing things about in the editor its another coding and I am a beginner at both lol...

I have limited skills at programming, I have not touched any really for a good 20 years.. :( now I feel old.. lol
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Re: Learning the basics

Postby TattieBoJangle » 03 Mar 2015, 11:40

Im sure they will help by putting some example scripts in the store as i feel it could be doing with some and users could work from there when it comes to coding for me and i bet any other person going to any engine it would be the AI ;) one i wouldn't mind paying for :)
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Re: Learning the basics

Postby SolarPortal » 03 Mar 2015, 11:48

yeah. We already have plenty of example scripts in the Asset Library.
"Asset Library/Scripts/Example Scripts".

There are also many presets already with microscripts, such as the FPS player character, Joystick Spell casting sorceress and much much more in the engine already. Simply open the microscript and study it. You will eventually see patterns and be able to get going from there.

Get going by starting with basics of printing hello world(gets debugging under the belt fast) and work up to the entity spawning, and translation manipulation, key events & mouse events. Then move onto physics and forces.
If you want anything specific, post it to the forums as a feature request and we can help you out. Users like @Shando and @antON already have a good grasp of lua and skyline lua, so they may also be able to help also. :D
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Re: Learning the basics

Postby Shando » 03 Mar 2015, 11:57

now I feel old.. lol


Don't worry, you're not alone ;) My first programming experience was with a Commodore Pet back in the late 70s :P

Over the last few years I've done quite a bit of Lua programming (my son's GMOD server being the main culprit!) and I found it quite straightforward. The main difficulty is working out what's available in the Game Engine. Fortunately, the Skyline Devs are making it "relatively" easy to implement complex functionality (take a look at the FPS system as a prime example).

If you find you need some help, just ask, I'm sure either the Devs, other users, or myself will be able to assist.

Shando

@Tattie - "AI" is one of my personal favourites (I actually did a Diploma in IT specialising in AI about 10 or so years ago, including such stuff as Neural Networks and Genetic Algorithms), and I'm currently evaluating the best way to implement certain functions (such as a simple wandering behaviour). Unfortunately, the AI field is huge and without direct access to C++ any Lua implementation is likely to be too slow to use for multiple bots at the same time :(
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Re: Learning the basics

Postby SolarPortal » 03 Mar 2015, 12:17

This is getting interesting :D, we have been waiting for advanced skyline scripting users to open the next side of skyline and its next set of functions.

@Shando, you could design the entire AI as a lua script, even if it runs slowly, you could then pass the lua script to us and we could convert it into a c++ function(s) which can be accessed by only a single or couple lua lines or even make it an action with adjustable properties which could then be expanded on yet again in lua.

This would make the all the code run as fast as possible in c++ with the only slow down of a couple of interpreted lines to shift through which is minimal in todays computing power, essentially the lua or action is a gap interface between the two. This is why we already have lua functions that do complex movements as we want everything to run in c++ for performance but use the lua for simplicity and new users to programming.

We are willing to convert scripts to c++. It was already one of our design ideas until we get the c++ SDK or at least a c# integration. At the start though we did have a plan of creating a conversion service, but for now we can do it for free. :)
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Re: Learning the basics

Postby epsilonion » 03 Mar 2015, 12:21

If I have to be honest the main things that I am having problems getting my head around is the CEgui and game states.

I under stand changing the state to paused to load say a main menu or a ingame menu but all of the programming I have done in the past was for making applications such as stock control apps etc.. so game states are new to me.

The CEgui is a new concept to me as well, I have been used to using commands to draw to screen and is mousePos = x,y and x,y (if mouse is in a box) and mouse clicked then do whatever.. :D

I think I will be fine with everything else apart from the above mentioned..

I started out in using JAVA when I was doing computer science at university all them years ago (when schools where still using BBC computers lol)... but I suppose if you dont use it for so long you loose it.

I must admit tho I am enjoying the challenge.

I would upgrade for C++ lol... :D

Shando I think I know you from another forum somewhere.. :D

I will only ask for help if I am completely stumped, I love learning new things... :D
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Re: Learning the basics

Postby TattieBoJangle » 03 Mar 2015, 12:25

such as a simple wandering behaviour


yea stuff like this is what let down other engines i have used it is always easy to get them in but having a good script is key and when others make one they like to keep it to them self :lol: i know some lua but not enough for the AI task.

Skyline has got to be the best i have used and the first one i have seen where you can make a character the player rather easy if the PC Animations were increased to allow more and a option to make it an AI or Character it would be amazing and would be something no one has.

@liam you can still do it that way as i tested a few simple draw on screen png's and it worked ok ;)

there is a good example in gui pearl diver for a main menu
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Re: Learning the basics

Postby SolarPortal » 03 Mar 2015, 13:15

we do not use CEGUI anymore, we now use libRocket as it was an easier interface designer and is based on the HTML / CSS languages. As Tattie says, there is a good example for the pearl diver game as a main menu.

Game States are a much more modular coding development. All you simply have to do is program the specific states to do what you need and switch them out. But it isn't just Main menus or pausing where they can be used. They would be great for things such as AI and more complex behaviors. There are a few custom user states which you can use however you want.
If i were you though, i wouldn't use the states until you are comfy and back in the flow of things as they are a more advanced system of programming.
The other things the states stop is constantly having to check in update loops whether the game is doing something or not, e.g. return if paused in the update loop, Disable player if "whatever" happens.
For example with states, if it is a paused state, then only the code in the paused state functions will play skipping all the rest.
States each have their own Enter, Exit, updates, mouse events, key events etc...

This tech demo may help you with states: "Asset Library\Scenes\Tech Demos\Misc\User States_A1"

The GUI Editor loads and can edit files. In in the HTML script, you can enter a lua function name to call if you are clicking a specific button or moving a slider. This makes it much easier to program.

Here are a couple of GUI tech demos to help:
  • "Asset Library\Scenes\Tech Demos\GUI" (anything in that folder)
  • "Asset Library\Scenes\Tech Demos\Lua\Lua - Time Of Day" - this changes the time of day based on the sliders input which calls through to lua.
i completely agree with taking the challenge and try to get as far as you can on your own, i find its often the best way of learning. But we are all here to help when you need it :D

C++ will be added in when the demand is met. It is a lot of effort and a core change to skyline.

@Tattie, we will end up having all sorts of AI in the end. We have been talking internally about having the different scripts for a sheep roaming and grazing to birds flying and flocking, to AI shooters such as the Ork. We find it difficult though to find the time to add game mechanics when we are constantly evolving the engine. But at some point the tables have to turn and we end up focusing on mechanics more than the engine lol :P

Skyline has got to be the best i have used and the first one i have seen where you can make a character the player rather easy if the PC Animations were increased to allow more and a option to make it an AI or Character it would be amazing and would be something no one has.

Thanks :) The "Player character" now has the ko animation added from the current release. And i think StarFire mentioned something about adding the Reload anims to the FPS system or was it apart of the weapons editor. I think she can explain it better as the FPS is her dev area. ( We don't cross each others boundaries much lol :P :P It allows us to develop faster. )
As for AI, Shando has already used the Ork AI as a base and expanded on it, he changed the model and edited the animation in the script and from his videos it looks like it works. Characters need to be 1:1 ratio to work correctly though with the character controllers.
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Re: Learning the basics

Postby epsilonion » 03 Mar 2015, 15:11

would it be possible to use a wysiwyg editor for the html.. just thinking of a faster workflow.. :D
then rename the html files to rml ?

wondering if that would work?
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Re: Learning the basics

Postby SolarPortal » 03 Mar 2015, 15:31

most html commands do work. Some things may not though. But i would say give it ago, not sure if its a faster workflow though.

Couple of rules:
> Everything that is used for dynamics. e.g. buttons, sliders etc.. need to have an id.
> The body must have a unique id across all other loaded gui's in skyline.
> There is no script, or jquery included.
> There is no php files etc..
> Tables are best created as Div tags for better repositioning.
> You will have to end up writing the lua command callers etc.. but we can help you with that. There is a help section on the gui editor though.
> The GUI Console is quite good at reporting errors.
> There are probably more, but it will be easier to help you when you have a problem.

Tip: When designing for width & height and other bits, try setting a background color to know the region it takes up.

If you find a tool that is MIT license and has source code for designing html files. let us know and we may be able to use it to create a quick way of putting a visual HTML editor together inside skyline. We have got it planned to do, but getting work done fast for starters is good. Then we can advance on it and make it proper.
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Re: Learning the basics

Postby StarFire » 03 Mar 2015, 16:15

It was great to see a camera fly through [on this topics video] looking forward to seeing this scene completed :D

Wow I missed a programming discussion, bummer! lol

Who said something about age:
now I feel old.. lol


Don't worry, you're not alone ;) My first programming experience was with a Commodore Pet back in the late 70s :P


No you're certainly not alone. I remember programming a zx81in basic and the good old days when you would copy your game code into the interpreter before you can play the game!! :shock: Or program a 6800 chip in hex [machine code].That brings a chill down my spine! I am so happy that today we have the better/easier C++ and a big IDE; feels more like a pleasurable process. :D

GUI
It would be nice to have a wiziwig for the gui, I have had it planned but it became a very low priority. It may currently look complex but it is a lot easier that is may first seem and we have found it quite quick to develop with as it is a live editor. By this I mean, there is a simple real-time/dynamic control with its own events system active as you design the ui. This would be clear if we had some documentation for it :roll: As SP mentioned there is a help page inside the gui editor with a few clues and a simple API for the events etc.
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Re: Learning the basics

Postby epsilonion » 04 Mar 2015, 11:05

Can someone look at this mesh file please, all my models that have a open door can not be walked through when rigid body is applied to the mesh (as mesh).

I am wondering if it is problem with the mesh file thats been created as the FBX file has worked before...

Thank you in advance.. :D

Mesh file here
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Re: Learning the basics

Postby TattieBoJangle » 04 Mar 2015, 11:11

I had a look m8 and i can walk inside and jump on the sides.
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Re: Learning the basics

Postby epsilonion » 04 Mar 2015, 11:13

hmm wonder whats going on with it then.. set physics as mesh so that should be fine..
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Re: Learning the basics

Postby TattieBoJangle » 04 Mar 2015, 11:16

could it be the character at fault ?

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Re: Learning the basics

Postby SolarPortal » 04 Mar 2015, 11:19

Perhaps, the controller capsule is touching the top of the door.

checking it out now :)

Edit: Also try to engage the physics debug on the Scene Settings panel.

Edit2: I tried and got the same as tattie. i did scale down to 0.1, but this was too small and couldn't walk through it. So i scaled it up a bit, set to dynamic and back to static and it was fine.
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Re: Learning the basics

Postby epsilonion » 04 Mar 2015, 12:25

lol i feel like an idiot, yeah it was the top not scaled it enough lol... sry guys
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Re: Learning the basics

Postby SolarPortal » 04 Mar 2015, 12:53

no, these things can be confuding at first with new engines.
You can always reduce the controller height if you find it is too big for a small door etc.. or just scale the mesh. :)
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Re: Learning the basics

Postby epsilonion » 04 Mar 2015, 12:59

Heres a quick one..

Can you turn the P off and the white star on point lights?

when playing through the editor it still shows.

Image

I even exported the test scene to see what its like on standalone and where the white star is it was just a solid white rectangle.
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Re: Learning the basics

Postby SolarPortal » 04 Mar 2015, 13:11

The point lights can be scaled down in the editor for now.
I will fix this today as we have complained about this too over the past couple of days. :)

Screenshot looks good though. :)
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Re: Learning the basics

Postby Shando » 05 Mar 2015, 07:24

@Starfire
Or program a 6800 chip in hex [machine code].


Me too, though I used z80 and 6502 :mrgreen: In fact last year, I released a version of Yahtzee for the ZX Spectrum's 30th Birthday written entirely in Z80 machine code :ugeek: I would have released it in 2012, but it took me ages to get the computer player to a state where it could play a reasonable game :(

Anyway, back on topic! I will look into implementing some basic AI behaviours in Lua (Wander, Seek, Pursue etc.). I'm currently in Sydney on business, and don't have access to Skyline on my work laptop :x but will be back in Perth tomorrow and should have some time to play tomorrow night ;)

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Re: Learning the basics

Postby epsilonion » 05 Mar 2015, 11:26

Updated with another video.. youtube does not do the scene justice.

the video does not really do the scene justice.
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