Skyline Gen 2 v0.9.8.9 Peeve Issues [Solved]

[Olander]

This issue has been solved. The issue is with nVidia Drivers 370.0+ with the 64bit pixel depth addition that was made. Some software must be updated to specifically state which mode it must be in for the graphics card. Some file in Gen2 is not setting this mode correctly.

Installed version => SGE - Gen2 V0.9.8.9 update ( Redemption )

Computer Info:
Window 7 SP1 (updated fully)
AMD CPU 8 core
nVidia GTX1060 6GB
2TB 7200RPM HDD
Gen 2 Install Location: C:\Skyline Game Engine

So I installed it this evening and two things happened.
- Windows Aero went haywire
- OpenAL (some 3D Audio thing) installed/updated itself

So what is happening after install is many services are failing with a code 5...meaning access denied. Also Windows Desktop went into some hybrid mode that was not quite Basic and not quite Aero.

I am not certain what OpenAL is but it is being installed with Skyline (dates match) and it did update itself with the install of Gen 2.

Lastly, why on earth would the Gen 2 install require a restart of my computer? Gen 1 did not do this and not one of the other software tools for gaming or modelling do this.

The peeve here is why a separate audio software is being installed, why the computer restart required, and why is Gen 2 hosing Windows 7 Desktop settings?
I understand mistakes happen but this sort of thing is just....you fill in the words. I am very happy I did not install it on my laptop as well. Gen 1 works just fine (still has OpenAL).

I uninstalled Gen 2 and the desktop Aero came back. I did a sfc /scannow and it fixed a couple of files but still my VNC Server would not start its service and connecting to it is not happening. So I need to dig into why services are being denied.

Sorry folks....but this is a big one. I think I may just wait for awhile on Gen 2 and provide feedback then.

[SolarPortal]

The peeve here is why a separate audio software is being installed, why the computer restart required, and why is Gen 2 hosing Windows 7 Desktop settings?

hmm, strange as to why the services have gone haywire.. this is the first we've heard of it lol

Skyline requires a reboot at the end of installation to make sure the Environment variables are set which are used for auto updating the software which could quite easily be registry instead, its just the way we have done it since Gen1. Gen1 also required a reboot so not sure why you never got that before.
As for OpenAL, this is used as the main audio driver in skyline. It is created by Creative Labs who are behind some very good audio software. The installer for openal is a bit naff and always installs as it doesn't have an already installed option.

I am happy to work through some things to ensure that the Gen2 installer is fine and that the Gen2 files are in tact
It would be great to know why your services and settings are messed up.

Again, Skyline Gen2 is Private alpha and its always good to have someone to work it through with as we have only tested Gen2 on windows 10 so far.

Is this sort of your issue:
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/70980-63-need-windows-aero-effect-back
This says that when aero goes wrong, it can be caused by an imcompatible software. So just wondering if the installer is imcompatible with Win7 as the compiler and software used to program Gen2 is the same as Gen1.

Edit: Here are some more files are articles related potentially:
http://www.thewindowsclub.com/access-is-denied-software-installation-windows
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/272412/error-message-access-denied-when-starting-a-recently-installed-program

• You could try installing with Admin privileges as it sounds common across the web not just with our software.
• Is any anti-virus or firewall blocking the install?
• Try installing to the default location instead?

The installer is different to Gen1 but uses the same software. I am researching into this as we speak

Also, the installer does register the product with the windows installer.
Edit2: Just wondering if its a .net issue with the installer.

Edit3: just saw this post on Ue4 where someone couldnt install on win7 without sp1, i know you have it but it seems common to have issues with win7 now lol https://forums.unrealengine.com/showthread.php?64417-problem-installing-UE4-on-win7-sp1-issue

Are you running 32bit or 64bit? as i can try a few different options in the installer file and re-upload new ones.

Again, very sorry this has happened to you I dont have a windows 7 sp1 pc to install too either to test on.

Edit 4: I am sending you a pm with a cut down version of the installer which does not download the skyline files but does everything else. If possible it would be great to know if the installer is at fault rather than gen2 files.
So i have pm'ed you now It would be great if we can get this solved for other window 7 users like yourself Again, thank you for the patience

[Olander]

Hi SP

I am running 64bit Win 7 SP1

I saw most of those links but re-read them again. Those are not the issue. I still do have an issue with Blender flipping out Aero in very similar fashion. You can read here....the information is really tough to find though. What I did find was that the new nVidia drivers were made to accommodate some new features and Blender was not updated for this and nVidia did not make a fallback from it either. Looks like any Bit Depth >32 disables Aero
Link => https://developer.blender.org/T49215

My laptop has a GTX660M and does not have the same issue and the driver is older. I did not install Gen 2 to it though to see. I still have my GTX750ti which had none of these issues as well and had the older very stable 368.81 drivers.

There was the obtuse reference to the 'infamous' ntdll.dll corrupted file that evidently does this. Not sure why Gen 2 would do anything to this file though. I had other software installed in similar time frame so no idea really. Some services start just fine though. Hate computers.

The UE4 forum posting is not it but has a great joke in it at the bottom.

So here is what I will do.
- I will try the slimmed down version to see if it happens again.
- I will then remove the nVidia drivers and put in the 368.81 version (this does support GTX1060). See if the issue is still there.
- If the issue is still there then I will try the GTX750ti and see if this resolves it.

I'll give feedback here.

[SolarPortal]

Thank you for helping test this

[Olander]

Tests done.

- Gen 2 slimmed down did not create the issue. This also includes OpenAL not causing the issue. So something in the downloaded files is causing the issue.

Since you are mucking about with environment variables. I decided to try something.
- I installed a simple program then tried to Uninstall it. It appears something with the Appdata folder...in this case the Temp folder showed all the attributes greyed out...check boxes were checked but it was all greyed out. So I created a C:\Temp and changed the system settings paths for the temp & tmp to this new folder. The uninstall worked fine.

Some of the software is specifically mapped to the Appdata folder which seems to been have changed somehow. These particular software are having trouble setting their file settings and starting services. I use Teamviewer heavily so that I can remotely control my Desktop/Laptop from 1 desk. I have had v12 for some time now and this is one of the software that changed after Gen 2 was installed.

Tracking this down is like hunting through a spider web inside a spider inside a spider web.

So what I am left with now is that the Appdata folder has been changed...so now time to try to figure out how to Unchange it.

I shall get back with more once I know.
Cheers
O

[SolarPortal]

Skyline once run does use the appdata folder for storing downloaded files and updates. But unless the software is ran, then this cant generate a problem. Even Gen1 uses the appdata folder and the code is pretty much the same for those features in Gen1 and Gen2.

The cut down installer is pretty much identical except for it does not download the zip from the server to extract. This means the appdata folder is not used for this unless uninstall information is stored there somehow.

I did see the appdata folder being a problem for some people when i was researching earlier. Something about admin permissions causing problems. One thing people did mention was dropping the uac settings to allow access for yourself.

[Olander]

Right. I did the UAC closure. I have almost everything back but still some strange Appdata folder issues. Something wrong inside or user account or whatever.

Might be a coincidence on the Appdata folder. So let us chalk it up to that.

This Win 7 operating system is a really long term install now. With all the software added and removed it may be time to simply move up to Windows 10 (kicking and screaming ). Most everything supports it now so may not be a bad thing to do. I think rig may be simply too clogged up and broken/flaky at this point.

The only other thing is the Aero from the Gen 2 standard install. This would be appropriate for Windows 7 stalwarts like myself. The only issue is that Blender only swaps the Aero Desktop when it is running. Gen 2 swapped it while it was installed. Only Uninstalling Gen 2 got the Aero Desktop back.

Well...time to get to it then.

[SolarPortal]

Have you tried installing the full download version again, just in case it was a system fluke that made it fail?
Other than that, i'm not too sure and i do agree that after a long install time with OS's they tend to get issues that obstruct other things working.

[Olander]

So before I went into Win 10 installing I removed as much Gen 1 & Gen 2 as I could find. I did a CCleaner of registry and cleaned out all the junk from everywhere (I do this weekly in any case).

- Then installed Gen 2 only and it cause Aero to do the same.
- I then installed Gen 1 on my Laptop and it did not require a reboot (as prior on both of these computers).
Installed to => C:\Skyline

Since I was having some performance issues with some other software and this nasty services issue I cannot solve I am just going to do a clean install and convert the desktop into Win10 Pro.

Thanks

[uk-stryder]

in the past when my customers complained of this happening it nearly always chalked up to not enough system ram and windows always bloody decides to drop aero first. There is a way of stopping windows doing this but that option tends to pop up once and never be seen again lol.

Also AMD processors can get a little funky, how old is the processor? programs such as blender and any 3d package maybe calling a function that isn't supported.

[SolarPortal]

We have had all copies of gen2 running on win 10 quite well. Its a shame with win7 sp1 not working.

Hope it goes well for you

[epsilonion]

This is My setup and it works fine.. works great with my AMD..
I can not remember what OS I have on my laptop will check tomorrow its rather win 7 or 8 can not remember.

Operating System
Windows 10 Pro 64-bit

CPU
AMD FX-8150 27 °C (8 Core processor)
Zambezi 32nm Technology

RAM
16.0GB Dual-Channel DDR3 @ 669MHz (9-9-9-24)

Motherboard
ASUSTeK Computer INC. M5A78L-M LX V2 (AM3R2) 40 °C

Graphics
ASUS VS238 (1920x1080@60Hz)
2047MB NVIDIA GeForce GTX 760 (Gigabyte) 33 °C

[SolarPortal]

Hi Olander, A user of gen2 has recorded whats its like installing on windows 7 for them and it all seems ok.

Caption: Thanks to TattieBoJangle for providing this video

Hope this helps show that the software is safe and that it may be an issue with your pc which the reinstall or OS upgrade will hopefully get around Good luck

[Olander]

uk-stryder
16GB of RAM. No issue with RAM at all. Thanks for the thoughts.

Aero is being disabled by something in the software configuration. Windows 10 does not have Aero. Perhaps one reason why MS went the way did for compatibility? No idea really. As stated in my posting nVidia udated its drivers to carry the 64bit depth of the latest technology in graphics (DX12 feature?). In any case, software that uses 64bit mode must explicitly use 32bit as to flip the nVidia drivers into 32bit mode. Blender 2.77a uses 32bit mode (as it should) but does not handle the new nVidia driver technology. The posting above has the fix for it and the fix will be in the next version of Blender.

I remember many graphical programs not even working in Windows 10 for some time after release. Probably related. Only guessing here or perhaps they are 32bit programs which put Windows 7/8/10 in 32bit modes. Again, mostly guessing from experience.

The video is appreciated but the Aero in the video already has the transparency not set correctly (by default). That is what the end result is when Blender or in this case Gen 2 is doing to the Desktop. Basically the software is removing the 'Glass Effect' of the Aero feature.

Look, I am not stating the software is necessarily unsafe. It did not crash the computer and Skyline opened fine. We agreed that perhaps messing with the environment variables did something by coincidence because this install has had a lot of software changes over the years...who knows what is left residually 'Under the Hood'.

In any case. I am not arguing about some galactic nemesis in the form of Gen 2 Just stating the facts of what happened when I installed the Gen 2 software (as specifically asked to do). I really do not like software, especially a game engine, requiring a restart of the operating system. It makes me think that something went on under the hood....makes me want to try to figure out what and why. Just throwing that out there.

As a test I took a picture of my laptop desktop before Gen 2 and now currently installing Gen 2 on it (crosses fingers). I will post the 2 pics when it is done (laptop is on different nVidia drivers 368.81). The desktop is doing updates and such on Windows 10 so I will put Skyline back on it.

[SolarPortal]

Thanks for the updated information Olander That ram is certainly more than enough lol

Does the aero kick out after booting skyline, not after the installer is finished? As the new renderer does take more to push the pixels as their are some bigger PostFx on by default. This could be one of the differences to gen1 which didnt take much to run as it was DX9 whereas its opengl running in Gen2 for now.

In any case. I am not arguing about some galactic nemesis in the form of Gen 2

lol, no problem m8 We are happy to help, but have to run through certain things haha We really do appreciate you bringing this to our attention and if there is something to fix, then we are happy to do so

[Olander]

Does the aero kick out after booting skyline, not after the installer is finished?

Aero was disabled when Gen 2 was installed. It was re-enabled (the Glass Transparency Effect and Coloring Features) when Gen 2 was uninstalled. Blender 2.77a on the other hand only disabled Aero while running. Once Blender shuts down the Aero is turned back on. Hope this helps.

Some interesting news on this. I think we finally have the answer to where the issue stems from.

So...no pictures needed. Gen 2 did not do what the desktop did. The Aero is just fine. Blender also does not affect the laptop as well. This leaves only one item that is causing the issue....the nVidia 370+ driver collection. The laptop is using 368.81 and will never be updated to later....works perfectly.

I also installed the 368.81 drivers on the new Win10 desktop and Gen 2 works perfectly with that as well. I will be building a new gaming rig so I put the GTX750ti back into this desktop. It works extremely well for everything except software chewing up more than 2GB of VRAM.

At this point I think Gen 2 and Windows 7 issues is specific to the latest nVidia drivers. The good thing it seems is that most using these latest drivers appear to be already in the Win10 realm. So it appears that me being a holdout are one of the low % users.

I would however continue to make the statement that Skyline should be developed so that a restart would not be required and your auto update process be flagged when Skyline Editor is run.

What an interesting ride.

Fun Side Note:
Windows 10 has been snappy and have seen large USB speed increases. Not certain if this is simply a cleaned out computer or not but very nice. Lots of things worked right out of the gate. Not so much kicking and screaming now. Actually kinda liking it.

[SolarPortal]

Good to hear that it was not a replicable bug and just the newer drivers at fault. I am always skeptical about updating the drivers as they never seem to go in smoothly lol

As for windows 10, its an alright OS, but like all windows OS's it has its issues and problems that it can cause but glad to hear you are liking the upgrade

We have wanted to remove the Env vars for some time due to the fact they will only work after a restart but we probably got this habit from compiling libraries all the time lol Registry entries will be a better option and that will allow the restart to be removed

[Olander]

Just a quick update to this.
- Windows 10 Desktop has not issues with Gen2 at all. Works well.
- Windows 7 368.8 nVidia drivers are not showing any issue at all either....working well.

I have since returned to Gen1 until Gen2 is a little further along. There are quite a number of Lua scripts to create which will take enough time for Gen2 to be a bit more polished.

Thank you for working through this.

[SolarPortal]

That good news Olander that Gen2 is working well on the OS's

May i ask what issues you had with gen2 to move back to Gen1? Basically, what areas do you feel need to be more polished.

Thanks for updating this thread

[Olander]

Well...mainly right now Gen 2 is difficult to prototype with since the terrain can crash the toolset. This is a known issue with the development cycle so not a real bug.

The scripting seems very stable though....no crashes at all. The issue with scripts is that there has to be a testing scene to test things moving around and communicating. Usually done on a terrain....umm...DUH...I should be able to use a mesh to test on. Just using cubes and spheres in any case while scripting.

Thanks! haha!

[SolarPortal]

aha! No worries, the terrain is very close now to be releasable in Gen2 for its first version; just taking a breather at the moment to regain ones self lol

Currently, i am trying to advance the visual GUI for Gen2.

Yes, scripting in Gen2 is much more stable as we found out what caused so many errors. However, i am sure there are still more to fix.

Anyway, have fun developing

[StarFire]

Ah yes cubes and spheres, my best friends lol
I use the basic geo for much of my mechanics development as you tend to focus more on the specific mechanics, plus the scenes load faster, only use characters and specific items in a proto state if required