Rendering enhancement

[SpiderMack]

Hi,

You can find some overview below, Skyline looks bland and tweaking roughness and metal sliders does not allow to get accurate to original material, while Unity basic shader looks accurate out of the box.


Also why Skyline propose two sliders for roughness and for metallic ? (Unity have only one and most of the time you don't need it)


I think it's not Gen2 until Skyline gets accurate physically rendering , i hope it will get better graphics before it's release.

[epsilonion]

Its a good idea to have a slider for metalness and roughness to get the look that you want, it offers more control to the user. besides there is 2 workflows, metal and specular (selectable at the top left of the material editor..

I use DDO (Quixel suite 2) a lot and I find that Arnold is the best profile to use and export for skyline, UE4 profile gets close but not as good as Arnold.. where as unity well blah, never been a fan of unity.. lol

on the original it looks like theers rust? with the redish colour but not showing on the skyline one and the metal edges on the skyline one looks about right where they isnt no rust on the original.

have you tried altering the brightness of the albido in skyline and changing the colour as the colour seems to give the texture a tint in engine.

What workflow are you using in Skyline?

[SpiderMack]

Its a good idea to have a slider for metalness and roughness to get the look that you want, it offers more control to the user. besides there is 2 workflows, metal and specular (selectable at the top left of the material editor..

Substance tools are standard and used in all AAA games, when you paint on substance painter you expect the same material and rendering in your 3D engine without to use sliders. Whatever you use Unity or UE4, you'll got the same look in game from Substance tools.

There is some issue with Skyline, very reflective metals tends to become white, there is some math to adjust. Also some reflections doesn't show up, if you push sliders you'll get too much reflection and you loose the original material graphics.
I don't have a game right now in Skyline, but graphics it's something to get good first because it is what players will look first.

Perhaps it's not important for a first release after all.

I can upload the model and textures if you want to give it a try , you'll see you can't have the same material as Substance.

Well this thread should be in "shader" instead "off topic" perhaps.

[TattieBoJangle]

Hi m8 if you want to pm the model and textures we can have a look and see what needs done

[SpiderMack]

Yep , you can download it and use it for any purpose or prototyping.

http://www.forum.aurasoft-skyline.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=2091

[TattieBoJangle]

Hi m8 had a look at it and the model its self is proper broken the "normals" after fixing the model you get more or less the same results as 3d coat I am using 4.8.03 only so much skyline can do with stuff like this







You can also change the reflection by changing the cubemap

[SpiderMack]

I used the same model in Unity without having to change normal
Perhaps FBX export would have been better for Skyline.

I can see on your Skyline picture :
1 ) normal map is like inverted and rust detail and colors is almost gonna (like Unity)
2) The grey piece has lost all details (roughness parts and color).
3) the reflective parts are more white than a reflection using environment map

Unity interprets better metal rendering, but looking closer the result is similar to Skyline
While it looks a little better in UE4.
I think 3D Coat export has some issues or imprecisions for 3D engines


UE4 using 3D coat textures


3D coat


3D coat exporting is not good as reference, textures are loosing details and roughness/metalness grey pictures does not reflects 3D coat rendering.

I will remake the example painting and exporting it from it in Substance.

[TattieBoJangle]

I used the same model in Unity without having to change normal

Yeah you don't have to change it but if its broke its broke you can see it in the first image from 3dmax.

I think 3D Coat export has some issues or imprecisions for 3D engines

Yeah the only way you would get identical results as 3d coat is if the engine was made using there render engine, programs like this can look great as they only load 1 or 2 models at a time lets see it run a game

Also is it running in opengl and if so what version or are you using the directx

normal map is like inverted and rust detail and colors is almost gonna (like Unity)

this is just down to the light if you set it up to be the same light position as yours you can in fact see the rust better in skyline as well as the little flaky rust spots on the box

[SpiderMack]

I used Substance Painter and Unreal export, but there is some sort of difference because of environement map is not exactly the same , UE4 has post effects and anti aliasing also.
But it's too metallic in UE4, the rounded part for example is too much metallic compared to original whatever post effects.


Adding post effects in Substance approximate UE4 in game with enought contrast up (I'll try in Skyline to match that result)
And rounded part is still less metallic in Substance.



If you want to test with the new set of textures you can download them here :
https://www.sendspace.com/file/qnev9i

[TattieBoJangle]

Yeah Substance Painter is the same and gives people just as much trouble you can see the difference in them all they have all the toys to make it look great but it would be more realistic if they stuck to some sort of universal standard.

[SpiderMack]

Yes , and Skyline gave finally not bad results about metallic


what is annoying is the metallic slider that needs to be almost to max to get the more accurate possible material look.

What matters is to get some workflow that works , i tcould be pre adjusted sliders or values in material editor, or some material inherance where your new material type would have some pre made values multiplier to textures inputs adapted to substance paniter for example.

[SpiderMack]

I got good results with Substance export to Skyline.
Next is to get Anti aliasing, Tone mapping, DOF in Skyline as some essential features really missing (animation functions and prefabs)

[TattieBoJangle]

I got good results with Substance export to Skyline.

Nice one.

Skyline as some essential features really missing (animation functions and prefabs)

Skyline has animation functions & prefabs & Bilinear & Trilinear & Anisotropic filtering, tone mapping & DOF was in gen1
and will return in gen 2 just bigger tasks to do just now.





It all comes down to what you need at this point to be fair if you need an engine that is finished then there are lots to pick from
if you want a engine that you can learn and grow on and don't mind waiting on some features then skyline it is.

For example they have added a good few things other engines don't have even unity just to make it easy for me (cough) the user.

I do see from time to time people ask for stuff that is already in the engine and I get it its exciting coming to a new engine but
like everything it takes time to learn.

Before Skyline hits steam there will be loads of tuts uploaded as well as documentation to help as well as discord for live chat you are more than welcome.

https://discord.gg/jyahhxy

[epsilonion]

Dont forget that each program uses tangents differently, Substance painter and UE4 use the same method of handling tangent space.

I am not sure how Skyline handles tangents but I would try exporting in different profiles to see what works the best with Skyline.

I have been looking at the videos surrounding substance painter and it looks like an amazing program and considering getting it myself..

Try arnold profile as I have had good results with this profile in other painting programs..

You can always make your own export profiles in substance painter ..

Along with what tattie says about been in development and unfinished at this time, if you experience any crashes or bugs you can make videos of them and post them to get them fixed before more features are added..

[SolarPortal]

Very valid comparisons @TattieBoJangle.

Its quite clear that none of the engines have out the box accuracy with either of the 2 products.
This is all due to some factors:
* Reflection maps: Are they high rez images like in skyline and unreal or are the blurred like in 3dcoat. Are the colours matching between the engines, a whiter sky will obviously produce whiter reflection whereas most of those reflections are blue.
Take note of the 3d coat IBL map too.. its using a lot of white spots in the image which is how the model ends up with the white streaks across metal.. this is common seen in car games such as forza in their indoor garages.
* Lighting is not the same, angles are different, brightnesses are different and all have different speculars
* None of the engines or modelling software use identical shaders, so there will never be an identical match.
* Albedo levels of the material also need to match, if unity and unreal only use for example use a grey, then skyline will be needing to match that from its material albedo/diffuse brightness.

But from what i have seen, skyline looks as good as any of the others in regards to quality of the model..

On topic of the dual slider, skyline should automatically set the metalness slider to full 1 (full slider) if a texture is used, same with roughness as when the settings are at 1 and using a texture, then the texture dictates where the roughness or metals are which is then the same as the other engines.

All in all, i don't think there is too much difference between the engines apart from renderer differences and as you say AA. but as tattie mentioned, you have full control of texture filtering...

[SpiderMack]

Skyline has animation functions & prefabs & Bilinear & Trilinear & Anisotropic filtering, tone mapping & DOF was in gen1
and will return in gen 2 just bigger tasks to do just now.

No animation callbacks are not supported , you can learn more here :
https://docs.unity3d.com/Manual/AnimationEventsOnImportedClips.html

Prefabs are not supported, Skyline just drop on your scene your preset, this means it creates many objects instead of one.
You can learn more here :
https://vimeo.com/109208392
Or follow the previous discussion :
http://www.forum.aurasoft-skyline.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=2044&p=11266&hilit=prefabs#p11266

It all comes down to what you need at this point to be fair if you need an engine that is finished then there are lots to pick from
if you want a engine that you can learn and grow on and don't mind waiting on some features then skyline it is.

I know i already use Unity for mobile games, or CryEngine some times to experiment. Skyline is in the makings a work in progress i am fine with that, and my threads are reminders, i am not asking bring them quick (i know it will take months)

For example they have added a good few things other engines don't have even unity just to make it easy for me (cough) the user.

Indeed, i like the material editor and all options or the microGraphs for example. Comparing to Unity is not usefull , it depends if it's your job income or some hobby, also the licensing is different and can matter for other people when it's not using the 3D engine as a job main income.
Or some people prefer Skyline editor that looks more simple for new comers, i also like some simple and good software.

Unlike some other people, i don't make critics about people paying for Plus or Pro version, many of them use Unity because they make games as a job. So hobbyst should also understand the choice is clear when you need more tools and plugins to speed up the game creation and have more options to get more chances to success.

I do see from time to time people ask for stuff that is already in the engine and I get it its exciting coming to a new engine but like everything it takes time to learn.

Yes, i think some small tutorials covering more aspects and last version would avoid so much people asking perhaps.

Before Skyline hits steam there will be loads of tuts uploaded as well as documentation to help as well as discord for live chat you are more than welcome.

Thanks. As i said , don't rush it, take time to implement some really essential features if possible (those we talked about many times )

[SpiderMack]

Dont forget that each program uses tangents differently, Substance painter and UE4 use the same method of handling tangent space.
I am not sure how Skyline handles tangents but I would try exporting in different profiles to see what works the best with Skyline.

It's strange, Unity , Unreal , they improted the "obj" file and all had correct normals (is something to change in Skyline ?)
I'll re check and also try FBX import in Skyline.

[SpiderMack]

But from what i have seen, skyline looks as good as any of the others in regards to quality of the model..
All in all, i don't think there is too much difference between the engines apart from renderer differences and as you say AA. but as tattie mentioned, you have full control of texture filtering...

Yes, Skyline renders more accurate, but i think it's because i had no post effect in Substance and no post effect in Skyline they were more similar. I'll make some metal/roughness mix textures to check again about materials accuracy, but Skyline rendering looks like ready.

Sure differences with other engines will be as usual , post effect quality, shader library, lightmapping , new systems (raytraced distance fields, volumetric fog, particles collision and instancing etc ...), and tools.

Among all users using Skyline, is there someone who expected it to match and race against UE4 ?
(but comparing is good to take some great ideas )

[TattieBoJangle]

Prefabs are not supported, Skyline just drop on your scene your preset, this means it creates many objects instead of one.
You can learn more here

This is unity's description of prefab

Unity allows you to intuitively create these types of duplicates using what is called a prefab. The prefab asset allows you to store an asset with all its properties inside the prefab, and the prefab acts basically as a template that you use to create new instances of the same object in the scene

I'm not sure what you mean as skyline does exactly that its the same as unity it saves a configuration of entity's and saves them under one file so you drag one to the scene instead of many.


As you can see it takes 6 rocks and makes it one file saving you dragging them all onto the scene.

it creates many objects instead of one

Yeah as you can see its the same in unity the many models are still there other wise you couldn't select them as individuals same as skyline this lets you select them as individual entity's as well.

You see when he selects one of the entity's in his prefab all the files are still there





The only difference is the way you select them is this what you mean you want to select the folder and that will select what is in the folder.

Among all users using Skyline, is there someone who expected it to match and race against UE4 ?

I have used both UE and Unity but I will say this for a 2 person team vs a multi million company it makes me as they have done amazing work, on top of that I'm not sure what they take off you now days when you publish your game but you cant beat that feeling with indie 100% goes to you sorry guys.

[SolarPortal]

also, dont forget the mesh merger, it doesnt work for dynamics, but its useful for merging multiple meshes into 1.

Clipboard Image.jpg (30.23 KiB) Viewed 56378 times

[SpiderMack]

I'm not sure what you mean as skyline does exactly that its the same as unity it saves a configuration of entity's and saves them under one file so you drag one to the scene instead of many.

Yes, it looks like it's the same , but it's not really the same

If you choose let's say 3 cubes and make a preset, you got one preset object you can drag on the scene, but in the scene list it results in 3 new cubes each time you drag and dropt your preset.
There is no more "Preset" object in the scene, you got 3 objects without any relation between them. If you would want to select some prefab you must select all objects composing your prefab, it's not usefull if you need to move and rotate prefabs.


In Unity, when you drag and drop some prefab, if there is several objects you must have a root object as parent.
Each time you drag and dropt your prefab, you see only the root object on your hierarchy (you can unfold if you need).
The advantages are :
1) less objects displayed in the scene, only the root parent object of your prefabs needs to be visible
2) When you select the root object of your prefab, you select also all it's hierarchy and you can manipulate all sub objects without needing to select them all


These two features is what makes prefabs so much usefull.
Actually Skyline doesn't have objects parenting feature, this is what is lacking to transform "presets" in usefull "prefabs"

As you can see, you can select any prefab so you select all sub objects if they are any, and the scene list is really shorter instead of displaying all pefabs sub objects details you don't need to be visible.

[TattieBoJangle]

You mean this ? so its not prefabs you are after what you are looking for is the ability to select the folder and it selects what is inside as this is what skyline uses instead of parent nodes

[SpiderMack]

You must create folders manually and selecting a folder doesn't select it's objects.
Try in Unity or read again my description, you can't do the same in Skyline.
It's another subject we can continue in the other "prefab" thread if needed


To conclude on this thread like you said earlier

Yeah Substance Painter is the same and gives people just as much trouble you can see the difference in them all they have all the toys to make it look great but it would be more realistic if they stuck to some sort of universal standard.

It's not trouble but getting better results.
Some times, you just need someone starting a conversation saying something really needs improvments to get things moving forward in the right track and getting the right skilled people able to make it happen

I don't know if Skyline roadmap will include to adopt GGX compatible rendering ?

Well Skyline materials are ok i think (almost because Illumination map is not working )

[SolarPortal]

Some times, you just need someone starting a conversation saying something really needs improvments to get things moving forward in the right track and getting the right skilled people able to make it happen

yeah, nothing wrong with that Things just take time to do as you have said yourself...

also, illumination works... its called emissive in skyline..
place the texture in the slot and move the slider and it will get brighter

[SpiderMack]

Very nice picture (the tire needs to have lot of roughness )
I checked , it's again a slider i missed